7.22.2023

Boxes. Boxes. Boxes. What do you do with all the boxes?

 A friend who buys many cameras and lenses keeps every single box. If he buys a battery charger and it comes in a box he keeps the box. Lenses? He keeps the boxes. Cameras? He definitely keeps the boxes. I used to keep camera boxes because I thought it would enhance the value of a camera when it came time to sell it or trade it in. But eventually the store I did a lot of trades with stopped keeping the boxes of cameras that were traded in. And that meant that when buying used cameras from them there was never a box. No instruction manuals (those are mostly online now) and no paper errata/trash. 

A couple of years ago I looked in a closet in my studio and there on the shelves was a chaotic collection of boxes. I started throwing them all out. Recycling the cardboard and recyclable materials. I figured there were some cameras I was going to keep for a long time and hoarding boxes just didn't make sense. 

Then I started buying Leica stuff and I noticed that the several Leica stores I buy stuff from seemed to charge more money for cameras that were: "In box." or "Boxed." Sometimes a couple hundred dollars more than for cameras that were sold "naked." 

Recently I bought a camera and lens from the same friend mentioned above. At the time of our transaction he arrived with a shopping bag that had the box for the camera, the separate box for the lens, and even a box for an after market battery charger. All the boxes were in pristine condition. All the paper trash included.

So, my question to the VSL braintrust is: Keep or throw? How do you handle the pile of boxes that tend to be accumulated over the course of time? Do you have a methodology? Is it something like: Camera boxes=save, lens boxes=toss, accessories=toss. ?

Are you pickier? For instance, do you save lens boxes if the lens is over a certain price? Do you toss lens boxes for "ordinary" lenses? What's the dollar amount cut-off? Do lenses over $1,000 get to keep their boxes? More? Less? 

All these empty containers take up space. Do they really have value or are some Leica buyers deluded into thinking that every scrap of Leica gear they buy will one day become a high value collectible which will increase in worth if accompanied by the box? 

Why would Sony buyers even consider keeping a box? What about the cheap, Chinese lenses? Do we save those boxes? Something as rare as a Pentax box I could see.....maybe.....

Help me make sense of all this!


On a more important topic.... I read last week an interesting article about strength training that ran in the Washington Post. Apparently the way many people lift weights/do resistance work is more a tradition than a science. In a study researchers found that instead of doing short reps (five or less) with heavy weights --- right up at the level at which you can't lift the weight one more time --- is no more effective at building strength (as opposed to muscle mass) than doing more reps (more comfortably) with lower weights. Lower being a weight that you could lift say 25 times in a row without hitting your point of failure.

The later method is more comfortable for most people who just want to put off sarcopenia and gain the health advantages of increasing strength (weight loss, balance, mobility, etc.). The traditional method of trying to lift the heaviest weights you can for a handful of repetitions has only one "advantage" in that it builds muscle bulk to a higher degree.

I guess that's cool if you want to look ripped, pumped up and more like Arnold S. But you trade off flexibility when you add too much muscle. 

I knew this info would be important to you. If you are so inclined be sure to look for the original source article in last week's Washington Post. 

Swimmers don't need bulk. They need strength and flexibility. Less weight x more reps seems to be the way.

Same for photographers.



37 comments:

  1. I have to admit that I do keep boxes for my camera gear, just in case I sell it on. Thing is, I never sell my camera gear. Go figure ...

    On the subject of exercise I read this book

    https://www.amazon.com/Easy-Fitness-Quitters-Become-Exerciser-ebook/dp/B0BMLSH13K?ref_=ast_author_mpb

    and it recommends walking, which I now do regularly. If I lived closer to a pool I would do that as well. Not a patch on your skills Kirk, but good enough for a duffer like me.

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  2. Hi Kirk,

    I've been buying and selling cameras more than usual over the last year to two and I've definitely noticed that I get little more cash if I tell the buyer (KEH, MPB, etc.) that it comes with the boxes, paperwork, etc.; conversely, buying a "boxed" item costs more.

    Funny you mentioned the WP study, I just saw my Orthopedist who recommended the same thing as I recover from a rotator cuff injury. He suggested no more than 1 or 2 lbs. for me given my age and condition and said I'd never need anything more unless I wanted to bulk up.

    Rene

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  3. Malcolm, thanks for the feedback. And just so you know --- I love walking and if I had to give up everything else walking would be the one exercise I'd keep forever. Swimming is fun. Walking is critical.

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  4. Rene, I hope your recovery goes well. Listen to your Dr. I have a friend who had shoulder surgery and tried to prove his immortality by defying his doctor's orders and got back to swimming way too soon. The results were decidedly not good.

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  5. Since digital and its churn rate I keep most boxes. That might change if I decide to stick with a camera or lens ‘forever’ if that moment ever comes. I’m actually moving and I’ve already packed two large boxes filled with empty boxes.

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  6. I keep my camera and lenses boxes and store them in even larger boxes, in my old barn.

    I even have the box my Pentax 500 body, came in, bought by my late, great, father. The Pentax 500 body cost £61.50 in 1971.

    (My late dad served, whilst very young, in the Royal Navy, and completed six Russian Arctic convoy missions, on HMS Trumpeter. Also, he was seconded to the Royal Canadian Navy, because he had worked with Robert Watson-Watt and was an expert on radar).

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  7. I mainly sell cameras and lenses on eBay, so having the box, papers and accessories helps in getting the price I ask. It also implies I take better care of my gear. Since the box is also designed to protect the camera or lens, it's a safe container to pack the item in when selling and avoid using yards of expensive bubble wrap. If a new camera is elaborately packed I'll even take photos of it the first time I take it out of the box to help me remember how everything goes back in when I sell it.

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  8. A few years back I was shopping a local antique store when I spotted a box with a Leica logo. It turned out to be from an early M3, and next to it was the box for the 35mm lens. I first thought, "That's interesting" and walked on. Then I thought "Leica people be crazy."

    I bought the boxes for $3 each. They brought $103 on ebay.

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  9. So far I am keeping boxes, but like you am uncertain if there is a good reason.

    I read some time ago (don't remember where, but it would have been a usually reliable source) that fewer reps with more weight was good for bulking up is a myth. People who use the maximum weight possible are probably just the sort who are looking to bulk up. I follow what PT has usually recommended: three sets of fifteen reps with a weight that produces reasonable fatigue. It seems to me that excessive weight increases the risk of injury and a large number of reps is boring and takes to long.

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  10. Some people are drooling when they watch unboxing videos.
    As if they are striptease shows.

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  11. I read that WAPO story on weight training. When I was younger I did that whole "lift until you can't get one more rep," and it always ended badly with some kind of injury (not always bad, but unpleasant.) When I thought about it, that result seemed obvious -- at some point, your muscular/skeletal system is going to quit on you, and you're pull a muscle or tear a ligament or whatever. I do lift some weights, but not a lot by body-building standards, and I do a few bodyweight exercises as well (squats, but I also hold a 20-pound dumbbell to my chest while doing them.) And I walk.

    I usually keep boxes until they're so tattered that there's no point, and tattered is a way of life around here, so I don't usually have them for long. I also don't sell equipment, but I do give it away. I have yet to have somebody ask (when I'm giving it away) if I have the boxes. As Gato points out, however, Leica people are usually somewhat unbalanced, so if I had any of those boxes, I might take more care.

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  12. Nah, throwing away boxes, that’s so wrong. Throw away the camera, if you keep it, one day it will stop working and just be a doorstop, but the box, that’ll still be a box!

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  13. KEH has the kehoutlet store at ebay. An empty Leica box or multiples thereof are often listed as buy it now.

    I often see empty Leica boxes offered at ebay.

    Leica Store Miami's trade-in list has spaces to check for including a camera box and the gray, sheet-cardboard, outer box that protects the Leica camera box. Having the boxes adds some dollars to the trade-in offer.

    And yes, I do have the boxes my used Leica gear came in.

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  14. Hi Kirk,

    Count me in with keeping original photo gear boxes. When I trade, or sell the boxes go with that gear. I figure the shipping boxes keep the gear safe when transit here, it should work a second time.

    I'm 75 and don't do weights, and prefer yoga these days.

    Larry C.

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  15. When I was a cool kid I added as much weight on my dumbell/barbell as I could until I could lift at least 3 sets of 8 reps with good form. Now that I'm an old fart, I've ditched the free weights and use resistance bands doing 3 sets of 13 reps. I find them much easier on the joints than free weights and since I now only workout at home, much easier to store than weights.

    There are a number of YouTube videos out there that I use to follow along so my workout doesn't become stale. IMO, for older people, you lower the risk of injury if you replace free weights with either resistance machines or resistance bands.

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  16. I'll add one more wrinkle to the box keeping. I put a copy of the receipt in the box, and put the box with the other photo boxes in plastic storage tubs. If I have a warranty claim, I can find the receipt. If I decide to sell on eBay, it brings in more to have the box.
    Thanks for the tip on weights. Very timely in my case, as I've just retired, and am setting up some yoga and exercise schedules.
    Finally, the other day a new lens arrived, the original box just thrown into a plastic bag with no padding. The deterioration in pack-for-shipment standards is sad.

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  17. I must add my name to those who keep boxes for cameras, lenses, and everything photographic. I find that boxes do seem to add value to used gear. At the extreme, about three weeks ago I saw listed on eBay an EMPTY box for a Leica Q Type 116 selling for $250. That's unbelievable! So, keep your Leica boxes.

    Also, a while back I mentioned that your enthusiasm for buying red dot cameras was inflaming my 60-year festering desire, starting at age 14 or so, for a red dot camera after seeing that a friend's father had one. (At the time I had an Instamatic 104, my second camera in a long line of GAS since then.) About a month ago the fester popped and a nicely priced new-looking Leica Q Type 116 (with box, papers, and more) moved from a Leica store in the Netherlands to my camera shelf and hands in NM. Its 24MP is good-nuf for me and I am still trying to decide whether my wander-about photo needs are good-nuf for such a fine camera with its remarkably sharp lens. Thanks!

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  18. Thinking about the camera, lens and accessory boxes I have for some older, well used Leica gear, I recalled that the boxes for the bodies and lenses have the serial number, in pen and ink,’in a designated area on the outside of the boxes. Is it important to have “matching numbers?” Will this increase the value should I decide to sell some items? I suspect that an item for sale, “boxed,” somehow creates the illusion that it is less worn, more pristine, well cared for. I also recall a line from the John LeCarre novel “The Tailor of Panama,” in which said tailor, while fashioning a suit for a customer–one that could only make them appear fashionable and elegant, which goes something like: “It was for the seeming, not for the being.”

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  19. I keep the boxes for any product that has a warranty, in case I have to ship it back. I SHOULD write the purchase date and length of the warranty on the outside, so that I can toss the zombie boxes of warranty expired stuff. I like the idea, above, of also putting the receipt in the box. Goes along with my practice of trying to keep a user manual near the item it pertains to.

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  20. “ …are some Leica buyers deluded?”

    There’s material for a few posts. ;)

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  21. (digital) Cameras are the only thing I buy new and since they depreciate so keeping the box is pissing in the wind IMO.

    For lenses and anything from the film era, keep the boxes. Mind you, my preference is to look for lenses with a little bit of wear but clear optics - anything too pristine may have remained unused for a reason…

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  22. Don't you watch Antiques Roadshow? Always keep the boxes.

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  23. Kirk,
    have you forgotten the euphoria you get when you first open a new camera box? It still
    feels the same to someone who didnt have the money to buy new, dont deny them the joy, its new to them and they feel better about their purchase.Keeping the boxes lets them
    know you take care of your equipment and even gives a hint to who you are.

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  24. I tend to keep camera & lens boxes but not accessories. Having done some trading on eBay (no camera stores within many hours of me) I have noticed that having the packing & manual enhances the desirability of a camera to collectors. Buyers of user gear, not so much. A lot of the manuals that come with new cameras now are minimal anyway, almost useless. Most of their bulk is because it is in 8 or more languages. Your native language (whatever that is) will likely get no more than 10-12 pages if that.

    I'm a hiker, not a swimmer but I agree with the advice of more reps that are easier rather than straining and doing fewer. It makes you stronger and leaner instead of bulked up and possibly stiffer, what they used to call 'muscle bound'.

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  25. What is: "Antiques Roadshow?" And since I have less than zero interest in antiques why would I view it?

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  26. I keep all boxes. Easy place to keep the bits I won't use, like Leica lens caps (always use third party because the Leica's are so expensive to replace). And the boxes are safe ways to ship lens when the inevitable end arrives.

    Jim

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  27. I've been chastised elsewhere for (gently)nmocking some Leica owners' obsession with boxes, so I'll keep quiet on that.

    By the way, an SL with a SLAPO lens makes an excellent free weight when you're trying to rehab a damaged shoulder.

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  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  29. I've decided I'll just try auctioning all the boxes off right now. I have time on my hands ... not.

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  30. Hello Kirk. Not sure if your 'Antiques Roadshow' quip is tongue-in-cheek or not, so here's the explanation.

    Antiques Roadshow is a Sunday evening show in the UK and has been going for decades. The BBC rock up at some stately home or grand place with a bunch of experts. Local people bring in their antiques and trinkets to learn about their history and get a valuation. Most are interesting but not exciting. However, the highlight of every show is the last item, where someone has something they bought from a car boot [yard] sale for a few pounds, or have something that has been sitting in their attic for years, only to find that it's worth a small fortune. They usually respond with a suitably understated British "Gosh!" because leaping up and down isn't the done thing you know!

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  31. Particularly where packaging from high-end goods are involved, I like to check to see if someone might like to buy them from me.

    Got the original wooden box for a Mark Levinson ML-C1 phonograph cartridge, or even a dead example of the cartridge itself? Don't toss! It'll easily fetch the price of a good lunch, maybe a very, very good one.

    Regarding Sony and other brands of camera packaging: Not really, unless I thought my tenure with the camera would be brief. Or the packaging was particularly attractive or useful in it's own right.

    I do collect camera manuals and advertising that strikes me as particularly appealing, such as the 1935 Leica catalog. But such inspired creations are rare, so there's little danger of the collection cluttering my life.

    Jeff in Colorado

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  32. I typically save the original boxes to stereo equipment, cameras/lens, small computers, etc. (I still have the boxes for hi-fi equipment purchased in the 1970s.) I like to think the person that later buys/accepts this item in the future will appreciate having it in its original box. (The boxes are more rare than the objects that came in them.) In addition, when searching for a used camera to purchase, my initial queries are typically to first search for a black body that includes the original boxes and manuals.

    FWIW, on the subject of weight training repetitions, in a recent Huberman Lab podcast (https://hubermanlab.com/science-supported-tools-to-accelerate-your-fitness-goals/) neuroscientist Andrew Huberman recently put forth that he has adopted Dr. Andy Galpin's recommendation to include a period of 8-12 weeks per year of low repetition pure strength training workouts. One of the unexpected benefits he noted of following this regiment was his cardiovascular training improved from this type of strength training. (It should be noted, Dr. Huberman does not appear to be a swimmer with advanced skills, as is Kirk.)

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  33. (I forgot to mention in my previous post about the Huberman comment on low repetition strength training for a portion of the year starts around the 20:30 mark.)

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  34. I keep boxes until the warranty expires. Then I chuck them. I use to keep ALL camera related boxes but then in a very lucid moment, which is rare btw, I chucked them all.

    Eric

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  35. Hi Kirk,

    I have a specific comment on why Leicas in boxes cost more, but fist what I do. I do keep my boxes for cameras and lenses but not most accessories. When I trade in a camera or lens I am asked more often than not if I have the box. Whether true or not, I don't know - but it makes me believe I am getting more for my stuff if boxed.

    Now Leica. I have bought most of my gear from the Miami Leica Store. As it happens they had an anniversary celebration earlier this year where they had several seminars one of which was on Leica collecting. Their collecting expert was quite clear in stating that used equipment in their original well kept boxes and all of the original paperwork was worth more because the Leica collector feels that this indicates someone who has treated their equipment well. The store also pays accordingly.

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  36. My understanding is people use boxes to show that they've taken care of the gear and it is in mint condition. Some people even brag about babying their gear.

    I am not in that camp. I've owned Olympus splash resistant gear now for some 19 years, and I've shot in quite a bit of rainstorms, I've gotten a few splashes on whale watches. I recall taking the camera on one of the Disney flume rides, and somebody saying to me, shouldn't I bundle up my camera to protect the precious from the water? Sure, sooner or later, the law of averages will catch up with me, and if I need to replace gear, I will have to scrimp and save to replace it.

    That being said, I do try to not being reckless. Most of my rain shooting is when occurs during a vacation when I'm out of the hotel for the full day. And when I do whale watches, I always carry distilled water and a towel to clean off the camera(s) and len(es) as soon as I can after leaving the boat. I also go on the larger boats, that are less likely to be splashed.

    In fact, I remember reading a certain Kirk Tuck back then for some of the finder points (outside of the splash resistance) the E-1/E-3 bodies had.

    Alternatively, it might somebody who buys gear, and only uses for a bit before re-selling it. Similar to the old joke in the past about so-and-so was so rich, they bought a new car and sold it when the ash trays were full.

    I used to try and keep all of the boxes, but generally after a few years, I send the boxes out with the cardboard recycling, unless it is for a camera I'm trying to sell. Usually by the time I want to sell a camera, it doesn't go for much with a box or not.

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  37. Not THAT Ross CameronJuly 25, 2023 at 5:35 AM

    Re boxes, if you think you’re going to sell or trade in gear, then consider keeping the boxes (bodies, lenses etc, probably not accessories) - unless Leica (see above comments).
    If it’s a keeper, up to you if you want to chuck the boxes after warranty expires.
    I’ve found my Nikon boxes have been good for packing gear if posting it.
    Re training, my PT (same age as me = not young) says that, as a sweeping generalisation, men tend to focus on strength, while women tend to focus on flexibility. We need both, to keep on keeping on as we mature in life.
    Keep up the good work Kirk!

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